Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/09/Category:Chronic fatigue syndrome

Category:Chronic fatigue syndrome

How should we best organize media related to the medical condition ME/CFS? The Quirky Kitty (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

In more detail: Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a medical condition with a rather convoluted naming history. The name most frequently used in the literature is the combined term Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS). ME/CFS is used in many government sources and academic papers. When used alone, chronic fatigue syndrome is more popular than myalgic encephalomyelitis. There are also debates, sometimes contentious ones, over which name to use--some people say CFS is a trivializing term for a serious organic illness, while others point out that ME implies an unproven cause.

To complicate things even further, ME and CFS were historically used among different groups. Perhaps ME and CFS were considered different clinical entities at some point in time; I'm not an expert on the history of this. But every recent, reliable source I can find treats them as the same entity. I opened a discussion at Category talk:Chronic fatigue syndrome where I explain this in more detail, and @Guido den Broeder: takes a different view. He is of the opinion that ME and CFS are separate conditions so the categories should be separate. As our disagreement is over the facts, we probably won't come to an agreement, so I think the opinion of one or more uninvolved editors would be helpful.

My original proposal was simple, to merge the two categories. However, there are some unusual cases that might deserve their own category. For example, regardless of whether ME and CFS are the same thing, there are some sources that mainly use one term or the other. There may be some historical sources that don't recognize any connection between the two. The advice of others is needed here.

Firstly, everything you're saying above is incorrect; I've already explained that to you and pointed you to the relevant sources.

Secondly, I don't see the need to discuss this in three different places.

Thirdly, you fail to mention that ME and CFS have different parent categories.

Fourthly, you fail to mention that I already proposed a solution, the addition of Category:ME v CFS debate as a subcategory of Category:Medical controversies. You have yet to respond to this proposal.

Fifthly, this is Commons, not Wikipedia.

There is no real problem here. ME files should go into the ME category, CFS files should go into the CFS category, files that pertain to both go into both categories, and any files that belong to the debate would go into the new category. Uploaders will generally know what goes where and if not, like always, they can ask or just leave it to more knowledgeable users. Guido den Broeder (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Let me better try to understand your position, so we can at least work out an unambiguous scheme for classifying files. Your position is that ME and CFS are different conditions. CFS is a broad syndrome (or "always a misdiagnosis") and ME is a specific disease. Media that deal with CFS or ME/CFS according to definitions like Fukuda or the IOM criteria belong in Category:Chronic fatigue syndrome, while media dealing with patients who meet the Ramsay or International Consensus Criteria belong in Category:Myalgic encephalomyelitis. As the status quo seems likely to stick, and I'll keep uploading media about ME/CFS, it's important that I understand your scheme even if I don't agree with it. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 11:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• ME = single specific vascular brain disorder as described by Wickman, Ramsay, Hyde and many others, originally (1905) known as superior polio (the descriptions differ in detail, but the target group is the same)
• CFS = research diagnosis with various different sets of symptom criteria only, to select patients and study unexplained fatigue and malaise (this excludes ME) (Holmes, Oxford, Fukuda, Reeves, and other variations, all with their own target group)
• ME/CFS = fashionable name at odds with medical nomenclature for CFS-like definitions with an emphasis on post-exertional malaise (PEM, not actually an ME symptom) (IOM - they called it SEID, NICE)

To decide which file goes where it may be necessary to read the source, because researchers are not by definition experts on classification and nomenclature, and will generally write what they get paid to write.

Cheers, Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

My only remaining question is whether you'd classify International Consensus Criteria (and media about people meeting specifically this definition) as ME or CFS. I'm thinking it would be ME because the ICC authors say it's a definition for ME. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 14:53, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The ME-ICC of 2011 target ME, so related files should go into that category. Keep in mind though that ME is a disease so a diagnosis involves examining the patient, not just checking symptoms. Without the inflammation, it is not ME. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:59, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

That's what I thought, thanks. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 17:36, 16 September 2022 (UTC)